Gus Hoyt will not vote to ban the English Defence League march in Bristol
The English Defence League (EDL) want to march through our city this summer. After it was reported the group could be marching on the same day as the city’s Pride march, a group emerged wanting the Home Secretary to ban them from entering Bristol altogether.
There is a petition doing the rounds and many councillors are calling for this action… and I find myself in a very uneasy position of disagreeing with such an approach.
First let me unequivocally state my fundamental opposition to the EDL and everything they stand for. I find their beliefs and actions hateful, ignorant and quite disgusting. But I still don’t believe we should ban them from marching.
If we ban them from marching on a particular day, their hard-core members will turn up anyway and cause a commotion. They will make a pretence that they are justified, cause trouble and then go home to stir up more vigour among their wider group. They will then return in greater numbers on the new, prescribed date in a show of defiance. We will have made ‘martyrs’ out of them and they will have ‘won’.
Far better, we allow the police to continue their detailed communications and logistical plans with the group. They can then – I hope – arrange an alternative day that does not clash with the positive celebrations of Pride. When they come, let us show up en masse and peaceably demonstrate that far greater numbers of people in this city find their march a disgrace than a triumph. We will outnumber them 100 to one and the message will be clear. The key though is peaceful resistance.
That is my practical opposition to the banning of the march. My real misgivings come from a fundamental philosophical belief. No matter how much we might disagree with what a certain group stands for we must protect their right to exist and say what they feel is true. If we start with the culture of banning certain groups from entering or marching in this city, when will it end?
With growing social awareness of the coalition’s true intention to dismantle the welfare state within one term of government, more and more people are rising up and saying: “No more.” If we have set a precedent of banning one far right group where do we draw the line? Do we stop the far left from marching? Do we ban the next most offensive group – I believe UKIP’s immigration policy is repugnant; do we strike them from the ballot box?
This might seem like a small point, but freedom of expression and of protest is a human right and it must be defended. Our society is divided; the competitive nature of our economic system creates these divides. Some, such as the Green Party, reason there is a need for radical change using the peaceful tools of inclusiveness, holistic thinking and equality.
Others, like the EDL want to divide, violently forcing a culture of greater exclusivity and survival of the fittest.
One cannot ban the other though, no matter how strongly one group may feel. This is the mark of a civilised country and no matter how vile I might find them, I won’t sign a petition – or vote in council – to ban the EDL marching in Bristol.
There seems to be a blanket of ignorance which keeps the reactionary ideology of islam and its alliance with the red fascists from penetrating the understanding of those who oppose the people of Bristol people's right to demonstrate under the EDL flag. They should go way and study these ideologies for a few months and then return. If you want to explore a "hate-filled" ideology, read the Koran with its 1300 year history of brutal imperialism or the maunderings of the far left with its hundred year history of bloody oppression and its liberal supporters in the Labour Party with its thirteen years of incompetent debauching of the country's finances and the country's civil society. E. Miliband seems to be emerging from his Rip Van Winkle sleep in his most recent "We Were Wrong" speech on immigration, though he has still not summoned up the courage to name the main problem: muslims and their supremacist ideology – possibly because much of his political base is the maundering far left and its residue in the unions.
I in no way support the EDL but i find all the posters up "the EDL is not welcome here" slightly ironic. To be intolerant of a group of people who hold a certain view or belief, isn't that what you are accusing THEM of?!
Unfortunately, EDL members aren't prepared to allow others the right to march in peace. In Liverpool, an active trade union and anti-fascist campaigner has had his photo, his name and contact details published at least 4 times (that I am aware of – possibly more) on Facebook pages along with allegations that he is a paedophile. This poses a threat to his own safety and that of his friends and family. Allowing the EDL to march in Bristol will pose similar risks to Bristol antifascists.
Google Andrew Neather for a first hand report on what Blair and Co. really thought.
I see you give your support to Pride. I associate the word Pride with a modest, quiet satisfaction in accomplishing something, not a basically-insecure garish display of pushing people's sexuality in other people's faces whether they like it or not, and crying homophobia when they object.
While one winces at the apparent thuggishness of some EDL supporters, their general sentiment that mass immigration is swamping our traditions and culture is probably supported by far more people. Certainly there is no widespread appetite for the Greens' policy of mass immigration which is, according to Migrationwatch UK, costing us billions of pounds a year.
This is a Port city. Of course it is full of people of all nations.
As for your language of “swamping” this is just a lie. And a rascist one.
And your language that Pride “pushing people’s sexuality in other people’s faces” is also a lie. And a homophobic one.
A city of different nationalities is great, a country of different ethnicities is great – but 10+ years of mass immigration & the totalitarian silencing of critics of multiculturalism, coupled with the aggressive left-wing surpression of everything culturally English is another kettle of fish altogether. It is not racist to want to preserve your ethnic cultures or traditions – when for example, the Maori of new Zealand preserve their culture the liberal left nod and say it is a Very Good Thing. When the English say it, it is 'Racist'. – Now consider this: the Maori are classed as 'Indigenous' to New Zealand- although they migrated from Polynesia around 1300a.d – only some 700 years ago. However, the British have been in Britain for at least 15,000 years, yet are not classed as 'indigenous' – in fact the left-wing media racially slurs us as 'mongrels' – something that DNA studies have proved completely untrue, with some 75% of modern British people (and 68% of English) sharing a direct ancestry with mesolithic hunter-gatherer people who re-populated southern Britain (England) just after the last Ice Age, and before farming was even invented. Critics can dispute this, but it would be somewhat futile as modern genetic science will quickly prove you wrong. Britain is an ancient land and the indigenous British are the direct descendents of its ancient people, with every right to be concerned about their survival.
That sums it up pretty well. To be concerned that this island is already the most densly populated country in Europe and projected that within 40 years will have the largest population of any country in Europe, does not equal tobeing racist. We continually hear about the wealth gap, the lack of opportunities for the young and for the poor, the lack of social mobility, but all these issues are more easily solved with a stable population. If this country is to achieve a decent quality of life for all it's citizens, population growth should reflect our ability to achieve this. Some people come and other people go, but this should be more equal to what was encouraged in the last decade.
Since when was Bristol a passenger seaport? Bristol is full of people of all nations because they arrived at Heathrow, chum – thanks to Labour's ideological but un-mandated policy of changing our country.
"Swamping" is a perfectly accurate description of what it is happening, if you care to open your eyes. Some people of course wish to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it isn't happening.
What else is Pride if it is not pushing sexuality in other people's faces? That is a criticism of the attitude of people who take part, not a criticism of their sexuality – sorry you can't see the difference. If you knew any gay people, you would realise they are from as wide a political spectrum as the rest of society, and many of them wouldn't be seen dead on a Pride march. If you think they are all standard-bearers for the Left you are deluded.
Will see u all for our march in July can’t wait to peacefully protest Longside the Edl
very proud of our troops and will also be celebrating pride weekend too.it’s going to be one great weekend see u all there! Get up stand up for your right!
"We Are Bristol" – a broad based network of local community groups, political organisations, Trade Unionists and individuals , supported by Unite Against Fascism has called a Public Meeting – Oppose the EDL marching in Bristol . It is tomorrow night Tuesday May 22nd at 7.30 pm in the Temple Back Fire Station.All Welcome.
I voted UKIP and will do so at the next chance. What right has anybody got to set themselves up as " judge and jury " as to what the people of Bristol think. We are all grown up thank you, and can decide for ourselves. If you don't agree with this march, then have a counter one of your own or simply ignore it. If the prospect of violence is enough to get a march banned, then it's goodbye to the student demonstrations, the anti capitalists, and the anti globalisation lot. Or could it be that they are "different".
Spot on Paul
as ive said to 'Anti-Fash' already, either everyone has free speech, or nobody has it. i also voted UKIP, as i feel they provide the fairest deal for ALL people in Britain – much fairer than the totalitarian thought police of New Labour thats for sure.
I used to believe that if you didn't allow freedom of speech, then how could you oppose those who speak out… That was a long time ago – I've realised the error of my thinking. We let these hate groups speak out and before you know it, they numbers will grow larger, their influence will spread, and hate will rain down on the streets of Bristol in a way we have never seen before! No one should have the freedom to speak hate, which seeks to lead to oppression of others. How can you possibility support and fight for Freedom for Right Fascists to spread hate – you may as well joy them! Once again – I repeat – "They Shall Not Pass"!
I presume you are a teenager 'anti fash' ? Your posts are very funny anyway. Thankyou
You obviously don't think you can counter the ideas of the EDL by argument and persuasion then? You just want anyone who doesn't agree with your politics to shut up and go away, who's the real Fascist? Orwell was right: " Fascism will return in the guise of Anti-Fascism. "
you may disagree with them yes, but democracy allows a variety of views to be expressed
As a Bristolian who has lived here all my life – I have never been aware of any Right Fascists marches in the City. I do not want to be witness to any Right Fascist marches in this City – ever! The Far Right – once again is on the rise, so called "Economic Down Turn" generally seems to sparks activity from Right Fascists! The pressure needs to be put on the system, the EDL and anyone else supporting this march (In anyway shape of form), to support its ban. You can stay at home or joy an Anti-Fascist Demo / March / Action. No true Antifascist or decent human being should support Right Fascist’s freedom of speech. A lot of people commenting on this story clearly want to allow the EDL to march. You are all pandering to the well-known (or maybe not so well known) sob story from Right Fascist Pressure Groups, Parties and Movements – that is "We should be allowed freedom of speech".
No offence Anti-Fash, but the far right is not on the rise because of the 'economic downturn' – its unfortunate growth in popularity is a direct result of 10 years of New Labour open door immigration policy and successive government's arrogant ignorance of the majority of the British population's opinion on this matter. Such issues as these cannot be neatly divided into 'left and right', 'black and white', 'good and evil' – To take such a view would be naiive, narrow minded and immature. There are a great many people who are staunchly opposed to racism, yet are also concerned by the negative effects that mass immigration has caused in their native country. These two views are not at odds with each other – being opposed to 'multiculturalism' or uncontolled immigration is not at all racist – unless a person is suggesting that only people of certain ethnicities should be denied entry, and its highly unlikely that this view is representative of the majority. Either everyone has freedom of speech, or nobody has it – Thats a free, democratic society, and if the authorities indulge the 'ban this ban that' views of the totalitarian fascistic thought police, we will cease to live in one pretty quickly.
Gus if you are going to publish that certain groups are ignorant or that you view other groups policies as repugnant could you please pay us readers the courtesy of 1) Explaining specifically which of the EDL's beliefs you find "disgusting" and 2) Exactly what is it about UKIP's immigration policy that you find "repugnant? I suspect that you may be the one guilty of ignorance
As the person who co organised the petition on the council website to ban the march (which has already been signed by over 800 people) the reasons why the march should be banned are clear.
The EDL are not welcome in Bristol. They do not represent the values or views of a progressive diverse city which celebrates all of our beliefs, cultures and lifestyles.
Their message of hate has appeared in many cities across the country and has caused violence, damage and fear in local coomunities.
Yes those cities banned the marches and they came anyway but the point is do we welcome them as a city or say publicly no we dont want you here.
If they come to Bristol following a ban or arrange another date at the meeting being held today with police and the council and are allowed to march, then I will protest along many others.
With rights come responsibilities and I would point out other Green Party councillors are co signatories of the call to ban so this issue is not party political but one of how people believe is the best way to stand against the EDL.
Support a ban and sign the petition to ban
Who are you to say that the EDL are not welcome in Bristol? What exactly is it in EDL's programme that you take issue with? Or is it that they are a working class movement that gets up your nose?
I generally agree with what I think the writer is attempting to convey, but a few points
1/ The Title. "Why the EDL, unfortunately, has the right to march in Bristol" unfortunately? you mean fortunately yes? because that is the tolerant argument you're putting across in the piece yes?. That being that it's fortunate we live in a society where they have the right to say and believe what they want, no matter how "wrong", disagreeable or stupid it may be?. I think that title alone is confused.
2/ "then go home to stir up more vigour among their wider group. They will then return in greater numbers on the new, prescribed date in a show of defiance" their wider group?, What wider group?, what is THEIR wider group? is there a fear that there's a mass of ignorant, IGNORED, poor (presumably white) folk who are ready to fall into their evil clutches? Why on earth would anyone believe that? unless they suspect that there just might be a nugget of truth in it. What types of folk are ignored? Do you ignore certain types of people Gus?
3/ "far greater numbers of people in this city find their march a disgrace than a triumph" You mean find their politics disgraceful yes? you already accepted they have a right to march yes? or perhaps assuming one is a connoisseur of marching, the EDL literally march in a disgraceful fashion?,
4/ "I believe UKIP’s immigration policy is repugnant" What is their immigration policy?
5/ "Some, such as the Green Party, reason there is a need for radical change using the peaceful tools of inclusiveness, holistic thinking and equality" utter platitudinous nonsense.
@dwbullock "Holocaust deniers are not tolerated, for example, and who would want it any other way? " Chris Hitchens and Noam Chomsky for a start, and you know… THE LAW OF THE LAND
from wikipedia;
The European Union's executive Commission proposed a European Union-wide anti-racism xenophobia law in 2001, which included the criminalization of Holocaust denial. On July 15, 1996, the Council of the European Union adopted the Joint action/96/443/JHA concerning action to combat racism and xenophobia.[45][46] During the German presidency there was an attempt to extend this ban.[47] Full implementation was blocked by the United Kingdom and the Nordic countries because of the need to balance the restrictions on voicing racist opinions against the freedom of expression.[48] As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes."[49][50]
The EU extradition policy regarding Holocaust denial was tested in the UK during the 2008 failed extradition case brought against the suspected Holocaust denier Frederick Toben[51] by the German government. As there is no specific crime of Holocaust denial in the UK, the German government had applied for Toben's extradition for racial and xenophobic crimes. Toben's extradition was refused by the Westminster Magistrates' Court, and the German government withdrew its appeal to the High Court.
@Anti Fash – Godwins law fella, look it up, not everything's about Hitler.
Anyways, that's my two-penneth, let em' march, don't kick up a too much of a fuss if you don't want them to have more publicity, unless you fancy having a bit of publicity in your own name.
I think there will be fuss if they march. The key is to make the story "Bristol defies extremism with huge show of support for tolerant society" rather than "EDL marches as Bristol watches on". I know which I prefer.
I was born in Bristol, always lived in Bristol ,worked all my life in Bristol .I remember what a lovely country this used to be that I grew up in .I am not in agreement with the English Defence league anymore than the B N P.I am certainly not a racist and have no objection to the jews that came here after the war ,or the West ndian people that have been here for years.However government has failed to address the sheer number of people coming into this country ,They say because we are in Europe we can do little about it .Well in my view we never ought to be in Europe in the first place .I have paid my taxes all my life .What gets to me is that people who have contributed nothing to our economy come into this country and have the same rights as me .and come straight onto our health service .This is why people protest ,but one is not allowed to say anything about it or are classed racist . Freedom of speach in this country .We don,t have any anymore .
You just posted this comment on a website and the police didn't come and knock on your door. Try doing the same in China with anti-government views, and then get back to us.
We do still have freedom of speech. Exercise it, and come to the counter-protest if they march.
Also, skilled/unskilled labour from the EU and further afield has been good for the British economy and for society as a whole. But that's a whole different kettle of fish.
If they march Bristol will become a blood, bath. "We must never fight for the rights of an oppresive group to exist" – thats complete rubbish! The system labells them as a "Extreme Right Wing Terror Org". If you lot want to fight for them to have a voice then you support oppressors of the people. Where Authoritarian methods are used, inocent people can become oppressed, where people are oppressed the oppressors must be stopped. If you want to let them march, then send your selves back in time and let Hitler win the battle of Britain, what will you say? "Its ok, he needs to have a say, and a try at killing more 1000s of poeple…"
Bristol has no room for the EDL on it's streets, no platfrom. THAN SHALL NOT PASS!!!
Will Bristol become a blood bath? Or will those who abhor fascism and bigotry turn out in force to counter-protest?
Anti Fash – are you coming on the counter-protest if they march?
Sod the demo, let's have a picnic. Anyone who's not racist can come.
I say let them have their demo, but let the anti-fascists have their counter demo. What gives them confidence is being allowed to march unopposed.
"No matter how much we might disagree with what a certain group stands for we must protect their right to exist and say what they feel is true," says Gus. A fine sentiment but illogical and untrue. Holocaust deniers are not tolerated, for example, and who would want it any other way?
We can all be bleeding heart liberals about this, but at some point we have to stand up and say that we will not put up with racism, violence and extremism in our communities, our city, our country and in our world.
Well, let's not put up with it then. When they march, we'll march against them. Who's with me and @dwbullock?
Holocaust deniers spout factual inaccuracies – they deny something that actually happened and has evidence.
EDL might say things that we don't agree with (they are anti-Islam and anti-immigration but actually otherwise rather thin on "policy"), but these are not factual statements anyway – they are opinions.
They are poor sociologists, but so am I and many others. They are not good for society, but then neither are dirty kebabs.
We have a Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights in order to balance competing rights so that hand ringing politicos can have things made slightly easier for them.
http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html#C.SecI
The right of the EDL to march is categorised in Article 10 & 11.
Both Article 10(2) and 11 (2) qualify these rights where the restriction for example
“…are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime.” (10(2))
By contrast the rights of people from LGBTT and BME citizens to live without fear or the often degrading, racist and discriminatory language thrown at citizens by the EDL is absolute. Article 3 states
“No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”
The petition which I and other Labour party members were proud to support and promulgate effectively asks the Home Secretary to go through that exercise and find logically the balance of competing human rights comes down in favour of blocking the EDL march.
Darren, how do we know that the EDL will "subject…[anyone]…to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment"?
I doubt that they will torture anyone, but they might engage in degrading treatment.
But I don't think it is naive to suggest that we don't know what they'll chant until they chant it, do we?
A free society is one where people live without fear, yes, but I think being able to say what you think without fear is part of that too – even if it's wrong and abhorrent.
It's not as simple as 'left= good, right= bad'. More like 'ignorant, racist and potentially violent= bad'.
Yes, hence my use of "e.g." The point is that people who are ' 'ignorant, racist and potentially violent' are not likely to be very good at holding a constructive dialogue with residents (or with other marchers in the case of the EDL and the Pride events).
You may support their right to march in principle, but I bet you wouldn't be so keen if they were marching right past our house. Not once it had happened a few times anyway,
Coming from Northern Ireland I am all too familiar with this kind of problem. The Orangemen insist on their right to walk down a public highway, the republican residents on their right to live in peace without having their windows smashed by thugs. As with the EDL the problem is not really the march itself but the presence of pissed-up 'fellow travellers' intent on violence (with the tacit blessing of many of the marchers, of course).
The solution adopted there is for both sides to meet with a mediating body (the Parades Commission – http://www.paradescommission.org/) ahead of the march. If the marchers are judged to have seriously engaged with the residents and made concessions to address their concerns – including things like having designated stewards to control the fellow travellers – then the march is allowed to proceed; if the marchers refuse to talk properly with the residents, it is banned. It's pretty far from perfect, but it has led to some improvement in what seemed for a long time like an intractable conflict of interests.
If these EDL things get more common (and note that there is often a noticeable English far-right presence at Orange marches in N. Ireland, so they've obviously been 'learning the trade') then I can see this sort of approach being necessary in England too. So, while in principle I agree with your 'live and let live' philosophy, in practice, these people are provocateurs: if you let them march wherever they want, in whatever manner they want, then they'll keep pushing to see what they can get away with. Compelling marchers to talk to residents first would be an effective way of distinguishing between 'good' marches (e.g. by left-wing groups) and 'bad' marches (e.g. by the EDL).
With you Gus. "Though I hate what you say, I will defend your right to say it" . Mark of a truly mature democracy. I'm proud to see that you are not jumping on the bandwagon. The more you see these people rant and rave in the streets, the more apparent it is that they have no real policies, no intelligence and no broad base of support. Just hate and fear, and that can only take you so far. We are strong enough to see that, and reject their beliefs, without censoring them and setting a dangerous precedent for freedom of speech and assembly.
If in doubt accuse them of being a UAF member, typical fall back position!
Hi Emma I didn't actually make any accusations, I hope that is clear? what do you mean " typical fall back position" as far as Muslims are concerned The more you see these people rant and rave in the streets, the more apparent it is that they have no real policies, no intelligence but do have a broad base of support.
It seems the gentleman (Guy Hoyt ) is unfamiliar with the beliefs of the EDL as he didn't actually quote any. . . this is quite common ! I wonder if Guy Hoyt is a member of of the UAF whos vice chair "Azad Ali" has beliefs and actions that certainly are hateful, ignorant and quite disgusting !
Yes indeed, for some inexplicable reason the Unite Against Fascism has chosen a fascist as its new vice chairman. Azad Ali is an Islamic Supremacist who supports a totalitarian world where everybody must live under Islam. Azad is a Hamas supporter (Hamas is an anti-semitic, Jew-hating terrorist organisation) and has said he opposes democracy "if it means at the expense of not implementing the sharia”. When an undercover reporter for Dispatches exposed Azad Ali’s political views, he threatened them on his radio show, saying: “We’ve got a picture of you and a lot more than you thought we had. We’ve tracked you down to different places. And if people are gonna turn what I’ve just said into a threat, that’s their fault, innit?” – Fascism comes in many colours, political forms and religions – and the UAF have put an asian Islamic fascist in charge of its organisation. UAF = Unite Against Freedom.